Curse

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

If you had any idea what you were talking about I wouldn't need to question it. Saying that the game isn't dead just because your guild isn't dead, and a couple of zquest zones aren't dead isn't an argument.

Look at the whole game. Player numbers have plummeted. You used to find large numbers of players, everywhere, now all the towns are empty except for the few larger ones, and zquest ones.

Clearly the game is dying, and heroes are a reason for it. If you don't realise this, then really, stop posting. You can blatantly ignore the information that people are posting, and sprout nonsense.

The game is old but it is not dead. If you want to see a dead game, try diablo 1.

The game is not dying because of heroes. The game is dying because of a lack of new content after so many years. In fact, I really wanted to quit just before NF was released because I noticed that player numbers have plummeted even then. Many of my friends have left and it was starting to be difficult to find players in many of the outposts. I remembered that the lack of player was so bad, that in the Ring of Fire missions monks were charging 5k or more for them to join a group. Many pugs had no choice but to pay up because the monk henchies were not good enough to ensure their success. If it is not for heroes that allowed me to complete my missions and quests without finding enough human players to fill a full team, I would have stopped playing since then. Then as time goes on, I made new friends and joined new guilds and now have the option of playing with heroes and/or human players in elite areas.

Those people who claim that heroes kill the game because they reduced the number of human players who would join up are just finding an excuse. Even if there are no heroes, many players would have quit a long time ago as this is an old game and the leftover players would have no means of completing their missions/quests, without a full team, except with sucky henchies which make this game experience suck even more. In reality, Heroes saved this game.

bhavv · Jun 18, 2009, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Yes heroes did save GW, which would otherwise genuinely be dead without them.

HA was initially killed because of the 6v6 change on top of heroes. This was incredibly broken and inbalanced as having 3 heroes and just two hench was nowhere near as crippling as having 3 heroes and 4 henchmen would be, and also many people left purely because of the 6v6 change alone. H/Hing in 6v6 HA was incredibly easy and broken. Now, in 8v8, to reach the same level you would need at least two people with 3 heroes each.

Yet this is an incredibly fun and enjoyable way of playing GW, and if it had been implemented as a seperate game type it would have been highly popular. Hero battles are just pure trash in comparison to H/H HA or GVG. I dont enjoy hero battles at all, but I love to scrim with H/H even without getting any faction or points.

I know Im not the only one, customisable AI play is just plain awesome for lots of people and I have always wished for it to have more support in GW.

DreamWind · Jun 18, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Are you reduced to simply stating your opinion without backing them up?

How is this a singleplayer game when my guild's schedule is packed with events every day of the week? How is this a singleplayer game when I see lots of pugs/players forming groups for zmission and zquests every day? How is this a singleplayer game when I see so many active guilds recruiting in our alliance, in these forums, and in the game?

Yawn. You say I'm stating my opinion without backing them up, then you proceed to refute me with piss poor evidence. Thats fine dude. Whatever you want to believe. If you really have been playing this game for 4 years as you state, you would KNOW that this game has changed from mostly multiplayer to mostly singleplayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

In reality, Heroes saved this game.

It didn't need saving. It was greater before heroes. You can say whatever you want about PvE (even though I disagree with you), but I KNOW 100% that heroes contributed to the death of PvP (alongside Anets inability to balance and support it). If you played PvP you would know that.

Bryant Again · Jun 18, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yawn. You say I'm stating my opinion without backing them up, then you proceed to refute me with piss poor evidence. Thats fine dude. Whatever you want to believe. If you really have been playing this game for 4 years as you state, you would KNOW that this game has changed from mostly multiplayer to mostly singleplayer.

I'm pretty sure he knows, but it's not going to be for the same reasons. People are grouping less, of course, but he's not going to point his finger in the same direction as you as to why.

Edited for prettiness.

bhavv · Jun 18, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

No, Pugs in GW were dead before we got NF. It was during Factions that many people such as myself stopped pugging entirely and started flooding the forums with requests for customisable henchmen because of how bad Pug grouping and playing with others was.

Prior to hard mode and PVE only skills, pugging was even worse due to the complete lack of decent player skill in PVE, with most people running crap builds like flare ellys or mending wammo tanks. These poor builds however were fine in Prophecies and all those easy peasy missions, however factions required much better player skill and skill bars, but the pug majority did not adapt to improving themselves. Many many puggers I have played with in NM have thought that losing a mission is not their or the players fault, but because the game is hard.

To me, the game was a lot easier and more enjoyable when I replaced pugs with henchmen, guildies and then heroes.

Basically, pugs killed themselves not heroes, and now Z quests are restoring pug use, but overall the average player skill now is a lot lot better then it was before heroes were introduced with NF. Players are better now because they have been H/Hing and learning how to play themselves. Now, if I were to get a pug, and someone said that they didnt use heroes because they suck more then real players, that is a big sign that this pug is going to fail =D.

Age · Jun 18, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

If you had any idea what you were talking about I wouldn't need to question it. Saying that the game isn't dead just because your guild isn't dead, and a couple of zquest zones aren't dead isn't an argument.

Look at the whole game. Player numbers have plummeted. You used to find large numbers of players, everywhere, now all the towns are empty except for the few larger ones, and zquest ones.

Clearly the game is dying, and heroes are a reason for it. If you don't realise this, then really, stop posting. You can blatantly ignore the information that people are posting, and sprout nonsense.

They are late comers to the game and have no idea what it was like back then my guild kept me up till 4 am.We just only needed to use the odd hench but it was mostly real players as well people quested more back then not with henchies.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If you really have been playing this game for 4 years as you state, you would KNOW that this game has changed from mostly multiplayer to mostly singleplayer.

I have played this game ever since it started more than 4 years ago and it has always been multiplayer to me. Maybe because I actually take the effort to befriend good players.

Quote:

It didn't need saving. It was greater before heroes. You can say whatever you want about PvE (even though I disagree with you),.

No it wasn't greater before heroes or NF. If you compare the number of players shortly after GW was released, 4 years ago to the number of players just before NF, the number of players in many outposts have already gone down. And by the way, do you know what people attributed this to at that time? The spreading of players across 2 campaigns. Alliances didn't exist until Factions and that also caused guild members within the same alliance to team up instead of pug. If you think human monks are hard to find now, you should have seen the situation before heroes.

snaek · Jun 18, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

Are you reduced to simply stating your opinion without backing them up?

How is this a singleplayer game when my guild's schedule is packed with events every day of the week? How is this a singleplayer game when I see lots of pugs/players forming groups for zmission and zquests every day? How is this a singleplayer game when I see so many active guilds recruiting in our alliance, in these forums, and in the game?

Too bad but you sound like the single guy sitting in a corner in a packed party. Instead of getting to know people all around you, you decided to just sit there and qq about yourself.

displaying heavy bias towards specific guilds and specific areas does not help your argument. it is a small sample size that has focused activity within a specific population. puggers take from a very large sample size, because they group with a diverse amount of people in a diverse amount of areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

I have played this game ever since it started more than 4 years ago and it has always been multiplayer to me. Maybe because I actually take the effort to befriend good players.

and thats your problem...your being too subjectively biased, presenting your argument from a "me" point of view. its good and all that you have always been able to find people to play with, however, with an objective outlook gw isn't quite like this.

----

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavy

Basically, pugs killed themselves not heroes, and now Z quests are restoring pug use, but overall the average player skill now is a lot lot better then it was before heroes were introduced with NF. Players are better now because they have been H/Hing and learning how to play themselves. Now, if I were to get a pug, and someone said that they didnt use heroes because they suck more then real players, that is a big sign that this pug is going to fail =D.

zquests have been criticized for simply being old content trying to be passed as new content. the relevance of this regarding this topic is that when you pug a zquest, you are very likely to pug with people who have already beaten said content. therefore, pug groups for these zqs will be more capable and more competent than the average pug group.

Gli · Jun 18, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

displaying heavy bias towards specific guilds and specific areas does not help your argument. it is a small sample size that has focused activity within a specific population. puggers take from a very large sample size, because they group with a diverse amount of people in a diverse amount of areas.

If that's the case, then what's the problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

its good and all that you have always been able to find people to play with. however with an objective outlook, gw isn't quite like this.

If you've been playing "from the beginning" as some of the anti-hero people are claiming here, and you still haven't been able to get into a subcommunity that allows you to play multiplayer consistently, I don't think heroes are the problem. Four years is a long time to not make connections.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

displaying heavy bias towards specific guilds and specific areas does not help your argument. it is a small sample size that has focused activity within a specific population. puggers take from a very large sample size, because they group with a diverse amount of people in a diverse amount of areas.

You dont need a big sample size to know how easy it is to find an active guild nowadays. And despite your claim of self-objectivity and using large sample sizes, please tell us how many millions of GW players have you personally surveyed?

Do people check the guild recruitment forums? Do they PM members of this forum who are still actively playing this game and ask to join their guild? In the end, you can choose to stay alone in a deserted guild and moan or do something about it.

Quote:

zquests have been criticized for simply being old content trying to be passed as new content. the relevance of this regarding this topic is that when you pug a zquest, you are very likely to pug with people who have already beaten said content.

There is nothing wrong with pugging for zquests. Are you then saying that zquest PUGs do not count as multiplayer? Sounds like you are trying to hint at something small and specific and then generalizing it.

DreamWind · Jun 18, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

and thats your problem...your being too subjectively biased, presenting your argument from a "me" point of view. its good and all that you have always been able to find people to play with, however, with an objective outlook gw isn't quite like this.

Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If you've been playing "from the beginning" as some of the anti-hero people are claiming here, and you still haven't been able to get into a subcommunity that allows you to play multiplayer consistently, I don't think heroes are the problem. Four years is a long time to not make connections.

All the people who I connected with have quit the game due to the game becoming a singleplayer game with heroes. Not to mention the PvP community has shrunk to microscopic sizes thanks in part to heroes and inbalance.

snaek · Jun 18, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by gli

If you've been playing "from the beginning" as some of the anti-hero people are claiming here, and you still haven't been able to get into a subcommunity that allows you to play multiplayer consistently, I don't think heroes are the problem.

of course i have been able to, but we are not arguing personal matters at hand. so such attempts at personal attacks are irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

There is nothing wrong with pugging for zquests. Are you then saying that zquest PUGs do not count as multiplayer? Sounds like you trying to hint at something small and specific and then generalizing it.

please learn how to take things into context. he was saying how pug skill level has increased, while this is mostly confined to zq pugs, not general pugs. he also stated how pug skill level increased because of h/h, and i would have to disagree with this. h/h can help you improve at the game, but it does not increase your skills in teamwork which is required for effective pugging. the main benefactor in this case is simply experience, i.e. they have already done this mission before and are only doing it again because of increased rewards that go along with the zq.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

please learn how to take things into context. he was saying how pug skill level has increased, while this is mostly confined to zq pugs, not general pugs. he also stated how pug skill level increased because of h/h, and i would have to disagree with this. h/h can help you improve at the game, but it does not increase your skills in teamwork which is required for effective pugging. the main benefactor in this case is simply experience, i.e. they have already done this mission before and are only doing it again because of increased rewards that go along with the zq.

Skill level is not the biggest problem with PUGs, the biggest problem is attitude. You dont need to learn alot of teamwork skills to realize that leaving in the middle of missions is wrong, or going afk.

Besides, all the blaming on just this SINGLE factor, Heroes, you failed to realize that other factors play a bigger part in the decrease of player population in this game.

1. This is a 4+ year old game afterall and it has been lacking in fresh new content for a very long time.
2. We have now 4 campaigns and players are alot more spreaded out than during prophecies time.
3. Guilds and alliances make random pugging less necessary and offer a more reliable way to complete missions and clear elite areas.

Obviously you choose not to consider the impact of other factors and go head-on in your narrow minded view that it must be Heroes as the main culprit of a population decrease. Heroes can never account for the population decrease comparing 2005 situation to just before NF, because they didnt even exist yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

All the people who I connected with have quit the game due to the game becoming a singleplayer game with heroes. Not to mention the PvP community has shrunk to microscopic sizes thanks in part to heroes and inbalance.

It's called "making new friends", try it sometimes.

Gli · Jun 18, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

All the people who I connected with have quit the game due to the game becoming a singleplayer game with heroes.

This is absurd. Were you their only source of multiplayer bliss?

If not, what was their reasoning? "Oh no! Some people aren't playing with other people! And despite me being able to play multiplayer with DreamWind and plenty of other people, I'm going to quit because this game is becoming a singleplayer game with heroes!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

of course i have been able to, but we are not arguing personal matters at hand. so such attempts at personal attacks are irrelevant.

So you are in a position to play multiplayer. Then what is the problem?

Are you and DreamWind champions of the nameless masses who aren't getting their multiplayer kicks but who aren't voicing a single word of complaint anywhere?

Really, I don't see what we're even talking about anymore. When called upon in this thread, everyone complaining about heroes turning the game into a singleplayer game does a 180 and doesn't have a problem finding partners to play multiplayer. Are you guys arguing for the sake of the argument? Does anyone have an actual problem?

bhavv · Jun 18, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Four years is a long time to not make connections.

My four years old huge friends list went all gray something like two years ago.

And good people who I did know that played the game prefered to solo.

snaek · Jun 18, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

Skill level is not the biggest problem with PUGs, the biggest problem is attitude. You dont need to learn alot of teamwork skills to realize that leaving in the middle of missions is wrong, or going afk.

please stop quoting that because it was not directed at you and has very little to do with our argument. i felt that what that person said was interesting, and so i commented on it as an aside.

Quote:

Besides, all the blaming on just this SINGLE factor, Heroes, you failed to realize that other factors play a bigger part in the decrease of player population in this game.[

if you kept up with the thread, you'd realize that i did acknowledge other factors. re-read the title of this thread, and you'll understand why i am focusing on one factor more than other factors. please do not assume that i'm only acknowledging one factor because i believe that is the one and only cause. just in case i didn't make it obvious enough, the title of the thread is called "how did heroes kill guild wars?"--i think thats a good indication of what we should be discussing in this thread. yes, you guessed it, heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gli

So you are in a position to play multiplayer. Then what is the problem?

the problem is the state of gw. let me use an analogy of skill balance: i am personally not affected by the brokenness of skills like distortion, but that does not mean i do not want that skill balanced. if its good for the game, then im all for it and will support it.

Gli · Jun 18, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

And good people who I did know that played the game prefered to solo.

I prefer to play solo too, much of the time. Much of the time, I tend to have to go AFK at the drop of a hat. Multiplayer isn't a good idea at such times, so I don't do it. Playing solo eliminates responsibility. I'm not a big loss to the PUG pool and never have been. It took me until Fort Ranik to realize that the game was much more relaxed playing with guildies (who I all know IRL) or henchies.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

if you kept up with the thread, you'd realize that i did acknowledge other factors. re-read the title of this thread, and you'll understand why i am focusing on one factor more than other factors. please do not assume that i'm only acknowledging one factor because i believe that is the one and only cause.

I mentioned this because many are blaming heroes for the population decrease and the game dying.

If it is not for heroes bridging this decrease in player population, many groups would find it diffcult to complete their missions just using sucky henchies and half-filled teams. If it is not for heroes supplying decent versions of the most needed professions like monks, etc, many groups would find it difficult to complete their missions. If it is not for heroes, many people in this game would not even know what a team build is, much less have the opportunity to design one. If it is not for heroes, elite areas that you can't bring henchies into, would have been very difficult to form a full team especially during odd hours.

Yes, you can say Heroes saved this game!

bhavv · Jun 18, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06

I play all my MMOs solo, however in persistent world games you often come across people doing the same thing as you so you group up.

In GW I meet exactly 0 people while playing PVE, and cant add anyone to my group while playing.

Guildwars lacks a social aspect due to the instanced play, it is nothing like WoW or similar MMOs where you simply bump into people while doing whatever you want and group up with them.

Also, most other MMOs dont require a party of 8 to get through the game. Guild wars is a very different and unique game when compared to traditional MMOs, and just happens to be much better suited to solo play with AI then it is to playing with others.

Abedeus · Jun 18, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

My four years old huge friends list went all gray something like two years ago.

And good people who I did know that played the game prefered to solo.

Same. Out of my dozens of people on Friends List, maybe 3-4 play, and every one of them is a H/H or a PvPer.